In this episode, I speak to my inspirational friend Mike Kavanagh (@back2thebreath) - equal parts father, husband, author, podcast host, leadership coach and breathwork instructor. Mike is the author of ''What Is Your Calling? The Journey to Find Work You Love'' and is building his life around his passions. This episode will make you stop and ask how well you really know yourself. Are you stuck in the daily grind or moving towards what makes you happy?
In this episode, I speak to my inspirational friend Mike Kavanagh (@back2thebreath) - equal parts father, husband, author, podcast host, leadership coach and breathwork instructor. Mike is the author of ''What Is Your Calling? The Journey to Find Work You Love'' and is building his life around his passions. This episode will make you stop and ask how well you really know yourself. Are you stuck in the daily grind or moving towards what makes you happy?
Hi everybody, I'm Jay Worthy and this is 28 summers, the podcast for anyone trying to inject some adventure, purpose and balance into their lives. 28 summers is all about living life adventurously seizing the moment and optimising your life. And in this second season, I'm building upon the messages in season one, with the help of a series of awesome guests who are all in their own individual ways, living life to the full following their passions, and living an adventurous life every single day. And my guest today is Mike cabina. He spent 10 years as a management consultant advising CEOs and senior executives of Fortune 1000 companies. Mike later left consulting to get into the fitness industry, a space he had a growing passion and energy to explore. And after spending time working as a personal trainer, he went on to work as a senior leader for one of the world's largest fitness companies. As we talked about in this episode, Mike later found himself an unexpected crossroads, and he bravely decided that that was the exact moment he had to focus on re centering his life around his calling. Over the following months, he found it back to the breath with a powerful mission of helping people discover inner freedom and pursuing a life of fulfilment through transformative breathwork and meditation. He's also pursuing a new career in life coaching and recently authored the book what is your calling the journey to find work you love. And as if that wasn't enough goodness. He is also the host of the back to the breath podcast, which is a must listen, when he's not writing or recording his podcast, or guiding people in breathwork and meditation. He spends quality time with his wife, son, and new baby daughter. Mike is not only a great friend of mine, but he is also someone who I have relied on over the years for advice and guidance. He is a truly awesome human being. And I feel blessed to be able to call him a friend. I really enjoyed recording this interview and listening to Mike and all his words of wisdom. I hope you enjoy this episode as much as I did. Get ready for some serious introspection. Welcome back to the 28 summers podcast. I'm really excited to have a guest with me today. Mike Cavanaugh. So Mike, welcome to the 28 summers podcast.
Mike Kavanagh:Thank you. It's so good to be here.
Jay Worthy:And this is a momentous moment for us. Because you were in the room when the idea for the 28 summers podcast was, was born back in 2018. I told that story in in the pilot episode for the podcast. So it's great to finally be here with you even though we're in completely separate parts of the world locked down under COVID restrictions. I'm really excited that you're here today. And you're going to talk to us about about your story and your 28 summers journey. So thank you for being here. And there with you, Mike, there are so many places to start. I really, I love your story. And you know, we've we've known each other for a long time. But before we get going, I just first of all want to officially congratulate you because you've just become a father again.
Mike Kavanagh:Mm hmm.
Jay Worthy:So actually, the most important question that I can ask you on this podcast is are you getting enough sleep right?
Mike Kavanagh:with one eye open like a cowboy? Yeah, you know, I'm doing all right, I'd say my wife is not doing as good. But I am frequently seen with a cold, half empty cup of coffee in one hand.
Jay Worthy:Yeah, I can I can imagine. Well, you know, all power to you. I'm glad that you're doing well. And it's it's strange. I can imagine bringing a baby into the world with everything that's going on right now. But I'm delighted that that she arrived safely and that life is treating you well.
Mike Kavanagh:Thank you.
Jay Worthy:So in terms of your story, Mike, I, I I think I was thinking about preparing for this interview. And when I met you, we kind of had a connection straight away because I think we we both liked, you know, fitness and we're thinking about, you know, our, our lives and how we live them and our purpose and all of those things. And when I met you were kind of grappling a little bit with corporate life as well. And I think in those early days, the idea had started to surface about, you know, how to find your calling and what that meant. And and I think that's, I know, that's become the focus of your recently launch book, which I absolutely loved. I think I was officially the first person to order it.
Mike Kavanagh:I believe you're right.
Jay Worthy:So I was hoping that you can maybe start off by telling us a little bit more about the book and what made you Write it.
Mike Kavanagh:Well, first of all, I want to thank you for actually reading it. It's hard to get people to read a book, they want a trophy when they finish a book. So the book is called What is your calling, the journey to find work you love. And it was, for me, it was essentially born out of my personal struggle with finding what it is I should be doing with my life, as you mentioned. So the book, it's part, rallying call to people, just get off the hamster wheel, get going on your life's work, you know, do what you were put on this planet to do. And specifically what I wanted to do with the book, having gone through such a painful, slow process myself where I was dragging my feet in so many years, and so many excuses, I wanted to create something that was going to take somebody, no matter where they were in the journey. So even if they were, like me, you know, had no idea what they want to be doing, but knew that it was not the path they were on. I wanted to create them with that actual path to follow to unlock those answers that you have that I believe that you have within your heart, and they just need to be surfaced. And then from there, it's bringing somebody to Okay, yes, I can do this. And then from there, it's even just pushing you over the edge. So people actually go for it.
Jay Worthy:That's great. And like I said, it was it was a really good read. And one of the things that really struck me and resonated with me personally as well was it how people can kind of get stuck in that pre contemplation phase where they know they want to do something different, they maybe even have some idea what that thing is what that calling may be. But they don't necessarily make that final step and make the jump. I wonder if before we may be talking about that how much of writing the book was for you versus for other people, like how much of it was helping you kind of refine your view on what finding your own personal calling was, and how much of it is really for other people.
Mike Kavanagh:It was 90% for me, and it went all the way back to when I reached out to the individuals who I profiled in the book, the people who had actually taken that leap of faith and pursued it, that for me was part of my process of recognising, you need to surround yourself with people who are doing what you want to be doing, even if it's not specifically people who are doing something that you aspire to be like, and then from then on, it took me a long time to get there. But even the actual finished product of kind of putting it together. That to me was almost like going through my own career coaching, career counselling, therapeutic type of process to say, Okay, now I'm even that much more committed. I know, this is how I feel. I've codified it, these are my values. This is what I really want my life to be about. Now that it's, it's there in black and white, I need to actually follow through with this and actually live this,
Jay Worthy:how did it feel to pick up a copy of your book when it got delivered?
Mike Kavanagh:I was it was definitely rewarding to have that be in my hands.
Jay Worthy:And I know your your backstory, because we our friendship goes back some time. But tell everybody who's listening, you know, how long? How long have you wanted to write a book?
Mike Kavanagh:Oh, gosh, well, probably, I've wanted to be a writer. Since my early 20s, I'm I'm 14. So it's been a couple of decades. And I have been writing that whole time. But I have not necessarily been taking what I've written and putting it out into the world. Most things have kind of left been left on the shelf, and are just, you know, lost on my hard drive somewhere. So So it's been a long time. And it was something that increasingly felt like I wanted to get back to it because it had been so many years since I had really committed to following through with a manuscript like that.
Jay Worthy:So it's really interesting, because you've written a lot over the years, and like you've just explained, a lot of it never really saw the light of day. So what what was different this time? What made you so motivated to write something and then and then put it out there?
Mike Kavanagh:I think in this case, it was because it's a topic that I feel so passionate about. And because I felt so much inner struggle and even pain throughout my journey where I felt like things were off kilter, and I wasn't pursuing a calling. I felt like okay, I have to get this out there. And actually, I think it's also a little bit driven by the fact that a lot of the narrative in this space right now has been coloured by some recent books that say, pursuing your passion actually, is bad advice and that really what drives career satisfaction or other things like mastery. And that just did not resonate with me at all because i've i've done things that You could argue for me, were things that I attained a relative level of mastery at, you know, I spent enough time that I got pretty good at it. But I was miserable. So I didn't think that that really captured it. And I think that was a little bit of a misleading interpretation of some of the research and things that are out there. I actually think for a lot of people, not for everybody, necessarily, some people are fine, just working a day job and living for the nights and weekends. But for a lot of people, they're like me, and they know that this is just too many hours a day, life is too short, I simply cannot go through the motions during that, and feel fulfilled as a human being. And so I felt like I just had to get that out there.
Jay Worthy:Yeah, that's great. I completely agree. And I was so pleased for you, when you when you finally made the jump and got the book out there. And how's the response been? Have you heard from people who've read it? Has anybody shared their thoughts with you?
Mike Kavanagh:Yeah, the response has been really positive from those who have reached out to me, I think a lot of people tend to kind of keep their thoughts quiet. And actually, it's interesting, because I've, I've known from hearing from some people that they worry, when they come back to me, if I know that they've read the book, and they're not doing something, I think I'm gonna judge them. Certainly not what I'm going to do, I think everybody's got to follow their own path. And, again, I mean, I'm not Who am I to say what's right for you. But that being said, Those who know that this is a question that they can't answer for themselves now, or, or they know that what they're doing is not what they should be doing. And they've somehow just found themselves stuck and unable to go forward. Those people have reached out to me, and it's been incredible feedback, just with respect to Okay, I loved it. And I feel like you told me exactly what I needed to hear in order to do this. And in some cases, also, you laid out enough of a path for me that I could actually take action today, and progress myself from wherever I'm at, which is, I think, sometimes difficult with books because you read them, and they don't always translate into actual change in your life.
Jay Worthy:I love that with your book as well, you know, I like to read a lot of books like this. And very often, I feel like there's, there's kind of one central tenant of an idea. And then they build a book around it. And there's just a lot of fluff and noise. And you feel like it could almost have just been an article there. And it would have been a really powerful article if they just kept it short. But they're trying to fill it out and make a book and I think it was notably different with yours was it really was a blueprint for thinking about the different stages or finding your calling. And I love the way that you, you know, you talk to the end about other people's stories, and you gave real live examples of how, you know, people have made the jump. And also it was very honest, it wasn't it's not like just stories of people who made the jump and suddenly became these Uber wealthy entrepreneurs. It was it was real people living a life of purpose and finding their calling. And, you know, the the roller coaster that that that entails, I thought it was an incredibly honest and powerful book. So yeah, I'm glad that it's, it's, it's been well received. And I've shared it several times. And we'll continue to do that. So like, I'd like to shift gears a little bit and talk also about your podcasts because you're definitely in creative output mode. So you've written a book, which I think is really successful. And you've also launched your, your podcast back to the breath. And I'm a, I'm an avid subscriber, I love listening to every episode. And it's quite a lot of variety in there as well. You've done some interviews, and you've also done some guided meditation. And then, you know, some some thoughts for the day. And I just really enjoy the podcast. And I was wondering if you could tell us a little bit more about that. What made you start the podcast and, you know, what's your central message that you're trying to share?
Mike Kavanagh:Yeah, what made me start it? Well, we've talked about this a bit ignorance about how much work it is. And maybe back 5% of the world's population has a podcast so yeah, if everyone was jumping off a bridge, I guess I'd be jumping off a bridge to actually no, that's more you, that's your, your, you'd be the guy that would strap on the bungee cord and jump off a bridge and I I justify it in my head. It's a passion project first and foremost, and I justify it in my head as as content marketing so that I can say, hey, it's okay that I spend this much time on the podcast, but the, the central message so we'll actually you know before I go to the central message, I also want to make one comment about podcasts in general that I love. And I love yours as well. And I appreciate the fact that you're putting this out there. And the fact that you came on to back to the breath as a guest, which was a really wonderful conversation, if people haven't listened to that, they should totally check it out. And I had the benefit of listening to it more than once, because of the fact that I am also my post production, audio engineer jack of all trades. And so I was actually really listening. Second and third time through and things were hitting me that much more. And it actually did shape the way that I went about living since that point. So I just want to put that out there. I want to thank you for that. That was That was awesome.
Jay Worthy:Well, thank you.
Mike Kavanagh:It's okay. So I think podcasting is awesome, because of the fact that it is, it's a format that lends itself to idea sharing that I think it does that better than a lot of other medium media, like social media, for example, which I hate social media. I mean, we've talked about this, and I, I know it's I probably rip on it more, more than most, and probably a little too much. But to me, a lot of times social media just feels like it's these very bite sized morsels of stuff. And I just, I don't know, I just feel like for me, I'm not a bite size guy, I feel like I really want to go deep in things. That's the way I live my life in general. You know, that's the, my friendships are more about a few are smaller number of deep friendships. It's why I am terrible at small talk, you know, people are like, let's, you know, what did you think of the game last night, and I'm like, though, let's talk about what's your deepest passion in life, you know, with your own mortality, you know, so actually, that's not usually how it goes. Usually, I'm because of that I'm the quiet guy in the in the corner who just listens to everybody else doing the talking, but, but to me, podcasting allows you to really take the time to unpack ideas. And that's what you've done in your podcast as well. And I think that's really important. And so for me, some of what I feel is so important to unpack is, I look around and I see, human beings are, generally speaking, staying current on the surface level. And all the while there's this depth in this richness of experience, that's just essentially, it's just waiting to be tapped. And so that's one of the core messages of the podcast is when I look around, I see a lot of people chasing the wrong thing. And it sounds a little bold to say, hey, you're chasing the wrong thing. But what I mean by that is, they think what they're doing is going to bring them happiness. And generally it's it's not it's, it's people, for example, they might be thinking, Okay, I'm going to work hard, so I can get that promotion. And underpinning that is because I think that promotion is gonna make me happy, or we're gonna redo our kitchen, you know, we're gonna remodel the kitchen, because ultimately, we think that's going to make us happy. And you're not thinking that. But those are actually the mechanics of what's driving you to live the way that you're living. And so it feels to me like most of us, and I speak this way, because it was me too. And it still is often but we're on autopilot. We're just living the way we're living, we're rarely taking a step back to look at the situation we're in, to examine those mechanics, behind contentment, and to recognise that there's another way to live that through inner work, there's a more direct route to that which we really want, which is this deeper, lasting, unconditional sense of fulfilment. So that's the message behind back to the breath.
Jay Worthy:That's great. And I, you and I have talked about this before. But it's really hard to put your content out there at first, right? Because it's, you know, we talk about dancing with the fear of you, particularly you as well, I think coming from kind of a corporate background where I first met you, and then what you're doing now is so different, so creative. It's it feels totally normal for me, because I know you so well, but for people who perhaps don't know you as well, it might be quite quite surprising to them. So what have been, you know, maybe some of the some of the highs and lows for you of stepping out of your safe corporate world and into this creative world. Hmm.
Mike Kavanagh:That is a very, I would say astute observation. Because I think anytime you pivot as a person, a lot of people knew you as a certain thing. They knew you in a certain way. And it makes them uncomfortable and not everybody comes along with you for the journey. And that's challenging also in the beginning because the only people you have in the beginning are The people that were with you in your past life, and if all those people are in a different realm, an awful lot of them are just going to feel almost alienated. Sometimes. I mean, that's a bit of a strong word, but they, they can even put you in a box and almost resist what you're doing because it doesn't fit with what they think about you or how they see you. So, I do think that is, you're pointing to one of the challenges of I think any major life change is sometimes you have to leave the old behind. And leaving the old behind can sometimes mean, you're having to let go of things like relationships that weren't serving you, or just letting go of, of the felt sense of approval that you feel like you need from these people who are maybe going to be looking at you very differently from what you were doing before. So I think that's part of it. I think, on the whole, I love it, I would have to say, the real highs for me are twofold. The first high that I just absolutely love is it's when you do something that you're proud of, when you create something that you're proud of. And to me, that is like a reward in and of itself. If you're just like, okay, I did this, and it's something that I feel like I am confident enough to put out there even in spite of all this fear, even though it's making me incredibly uncomfortable, I am going to put this out there. Because I feel like I I put myself out there I was vulnerable, I was real I was the person I wanted to be and the product was in some way, a quality that I was comfortable with. So that to me is like high number one, high number two, which is by far the highest high. And I suspect that you feel this way as well, I'd be interested to hear you, you comment on it. But it's when those moments come in, where somebody shares with you, that what you put out, moved them deeply, you know, or made them make some kind of very meaningful change in their life. And I've been lucky enough in this case to have that happen. And sometimes it's it's been like really meaningful stuff like mind blowing mean, meaningful stuff. And that, to me is like just such a gift when that happens, because it's it's like, okay, that is I never could have hoped for that to happen. But that's what I want my life to be about. That's the motivating force behind everything that I'm doing right now is to be more helpful and to be of greater contribution in this life. And so when I get that feedback, it's awesome. And it also does help you keep going, when you're confronted by that self doubt that you're inevitably going to be feeling feeling very tired at various times. It's brilliant. And
Jay Worthy:you're right, it's like a virtuous circle. When you get that positive feedback, it makes you It makes you want to want to keep keep going and keep doing what you're doing. And similarly for me, because you asked my high, my low from launching the podcast actually linked to the same thing. So my, my biggest low at the start after four or five episodes was thinking that maybe I shouldn't do it because there just weren't that many people or I perceived that there weren't that many people listening, I had the download stats, and I thought maybe, maybe it's just not something that people want. And then you know, just the same week, I got a message from one of the listeners telling me just how fundamentally listening to the podcast changed their life and made them think about wanting to get out and be more adventurous and more active. And in that moment, I realised that I could have one listener, and that's okay. And that's actually really powerful if you if you really change somebody's life and help them and if that person then goes on to help somebody else then then you're doing a good thing and it makes all of the all of the effort worthwhile. So, yeah, completely resonates with me. And by the way, for everybody listening, I would say if they go to your podcast to have to follow your podcast, but back to the breath, and there was I'm just looking now to make sure I get the name of the episode, right but you did an episode called finally back home. It was episode number nine. I really would love people to listen to that. It blew my mind Mike and I think it was so incredibly creative and different and it completely caught me off guard and I genuinely have listened to it seven or eight times. I just love it. I think it's great and I think it's so happy for you to have had the opportunity to be able to be creative and put something like that
Mike Kavanagh:out there. Well, thanks. I appreciate that. And it's funny that you mentioned that one because that's a great example of probably of all podcasts, the one that I felt most hesitant about putting out because it was so different. And in some respects, I think it's one of those that I've, I've heard the most feedback and in some cases, some some really powerful comments that people gave me when when I put that out there. And so I appreciate that. Totally. And I, I wanted to go back to something you said about about the stats. Because I realised a similar thing, and I, I actually had to pull myself out of the equation. I cannot look at that anymore. And so I, early on, I mean, the first like week or two, I would check simply because I just wanted to know, hey, did anybody get this? And then I realised, okay, this is not why I'm doing this. I'm not doing this to see numbers go up. And so I pulled the plug, and I have not looked at set since I have no idea how many people are listening to the podcast. And I think what you said is absolutely spot on. It's it's exactly how I feel, which is it's not about broad exposure. I mean, this, this is a passion project that is fundamentally about depth, not about breadth of exposure to it. So if if it is the case, that one person has a really, it sounds cliche, but it really feels that way. I mean, sometimes that's all it takes is just knowing, okay, like I will still be doing this thing, till I'm 96 years old, is there's like one or two occasional text messages coming in, that are like, yeah, you know, that really helped me in some way. And, you know, and I'll be 96, because of all that green smoothies, of course.
Jay Worthy:I honestly think that doing a podcast like this, I don't know whether you feel the same way. But it is actually a bit like the book, it's as much for you as it is for everybody else. It's, you know, it's part of the process of sharing knowledge, I just feel like the world will be a happier kind of place if we all, you know, care more and share more and give people these ideas. And like you said, No, sounds a bit cliche. But if somebody takes a great message from the back to the breath podcast, and then takes that on and passes that on to somebody in their circle, then then it makes everything worthwhile. It makes all those as opposed to editing what
Mike Kavanagh:it does. And I think that's for me, you said it's part of the process. And that's absolutely true. For me, I think every time I've done this kind of reflection, every time I've gone deep in meditation, or I've had some kind of spiritual insight of some sort, every time what's revealed to me is always consistent in some fundamental way. And it always has to do with these things that they come out and they sound very banal. You know, they're like, these just vanilla platitudes. But when you really see them, you really feel them, you see that it's, it's, life is pretty simple. When you abide by some very key principles. And for me, it's like, okay, am I living my life based on love? Am I being kind? am I helping others? Am I putting good out there? Am I overcoming my own fears, so that I can become my best self? Am I a net benefit to this whole play of life, not to say that I'm anything less than this very insignificant part of this, like infinite time and space and vast universe, but we are significant. I mean, what we do how we live, it affects the people around us. And so it's significant to them. And it's significant to the whole. And so to me, I think this is part of the process of learning how to put yourself out there, and how to be more giving of things and to turn off the part of you that worries about the outcomes.
Jay Worthy:Right? Yeah, love that. And I also I feel pretty strongly that I've shared on the podcast before this notion of not waiting your whole life to learn how to live. And I think so I think part of it is is is giving and, and supporting others, and being kind part of it is also just experiencing life and being present and not living too far in the past or too far in the future. So I'm curious because I know, you know, in your early so we talked about this a little bit in, in your podcast in your book, but you know, early Mike, as a consultant working insane hours poring over countless PowerPoint presentations. And, you know, trying to get smart and industries before you speak to customers and just not not happy really doing what you're doing. If you had the opportunity to go back in time and speak to to that, Mike, who you probably tried to walk away from that corporate world a few times, but couldn't until recently. What would you What would you tell him and What messages would you give a younger version of yourself?
Mike Kavanagh:I would tell him many of the things that I said in the book, for sure. And part of what part of what it comes down to, for me is an awful lot of my life at that point in time was governed by fear, anxiety, worry about financial security, worry about approval, and what other people would think, concern about whether or not I would succeed or fail and what that would feel like or what that would do to me. And so I was essentially pushing down all of this stuff in me, that was trying to make itself be known like this is what you love this is this is if you're going to follow your bliss, this is the direction to go, Mike, you know this, because I've shared this story with some some people, where I used to travel a lot, and I would be sitting next to my colleagues on a plane. And they would be reading business books, and they would be reading the Wall Street Journal, and they would be brushing up on understanding the industry that we're consulting into, for example, and what would I be doing, I'd be meditating, I'd be listening to a spiritual talk, I'd be reading spiritual book, I would be learning about health and wellness and going deep on fitness, I would be contemplating, you know, my next move, and when I might be able to, you know, jump out of, of where I was not jump out of plane, obviously, that's only you. Don't jump out of planes. But to me, I think I would have to tell myself, get over the fear. And recognise, you know, life is, is not gonna last forever? And what are you going to look back on this period of time? and think, if you just continue to go through the motions, allowing yourself to feel miserable, versus taking the risk, no matter? What happens? How could you possibly regret that there's no regret and going for something, if anything, you get to live this awesome little chapter of your life, no matter how long it lasts, and then if it doesn't work out, okay, then go back to what you were doing before, you're not gonna be any worse off maybe financially a little bit. But by and large, we're not talking about? Are you gonna have a roof over your head? Are you going to be able to eat the next meal? It's not like really, really important stuff. It's more like, you know, can you afford stuff that maybe you don't even need? So that to me would be probably a big message for me back then for that for that mic during those consulting years?
Jay Worthy:That's great. And I will say it because you're too humble to say it, but people should buy your book. And they should get all of the tips in there. Because there's some great tips. I do think that question around, what would you tell a younger version of yourself is so important, took a long 28 summers podcast about this, this notion of just kind of cut, cutting free and starting to, to live without limits, and live more adventurously. And you kind of mentioned it a little bit earlier on. But we probably all spend too much time worrying about what other people think of us. And that is probably one of the biggest kind of rate limiters to people stepping out and following their passion or finding their calling. So what what is it? So you've got that we've got the book, we've got the podcast, and now you also have a breath work and meditation business and maybe talk a little bit about that. And I'd love to know, as an extension of that. What What does a typical week look like for you? What are you spending your time doing?
Mike Kavanagh:Sure. Well, first, maybe give the listeners a little bit of context about where I'm at. So I got going pretty recently, you know, in earnest, it was it was a few months ago. And prior to that, obviously, it was working on the book. And prior to that I was actually doing my own soul searching, saying, okay, Mike, it's time, you know, we're gonna do this thing, whatever it is, I've been felt so pulled to do for so long. And I needed to figure out okay, what flavour is that going to take? Exactly. So I'm a handful of months in. And it's, it's worth mentioning that already, I've never felt such a degree of congruence in my heart with what I'm doing. And it's just so interesting to think back to a couple of years ago, where I'd be, for example, listening to podcasts, many of the ones that you and I listened to, right and I'd be hearing all these people talk about pursuing their dreams and passions or goals and how they think you need to go about it to be successful. And I would listen to those things and I just, I couldn't get out of my own way at the time for whatever reason. And it was in some senses was very frustrating to hear this because it was this like juxtaposition between this person who had already traversed the path and had some degree of success, and was living something that I wanted in some way. And then there was my life, which was not like that. And for me, the, their definition of success might have been very different, right, theirs might have been more about outward success for whereas mine was more about inner conflict going away and really feeling like I am living as the person that I want to be living it that I'm living according to my deepest values, that I'm pursuing my own spiritual journey in the way that I want to. So I think if you fast forward to today, that's the thing that comes through lattice for me. And that's why I think I continue to talk about this so much, and harp on the importance of pursuing your calling, if that's something that resonates with you, because no inner conflict in what you're doing in the moment is absolutely essential to a deep sense of fulfilment. So breathwork is very difficult to describe. It's honestly, it's something that I still haven't figured out. And one of the challenges is, with breath work is just that term is so broad, I mean, you know, you're a fitness guy, if somebody came to you and was like, I teach fitness, you'd be like, okay, like, Pilates or CrossFit or I was in bar, you know, you've told me almost nothing. So I'm recognising that I need to get better at talking about what this actually is 95% of the people who come in and do their first ever session, whether it's one on one or group class, they think that they're going to come in and have some peaceful, relaxing, meditative type of experience. And then they lay on the mat, and an hour later, they're like, holy bleep, bleep, you know, what does that happen to me. And so, you know, if I were to just try to describe it, the basics of it are outwardly that you're just simply you're lying on a mat, your eyes are closed, you put on the headphones, and you breathe in a particularly intense way while I'm playing music and guiding you through this experience. And what happens is that for the majority of people who are willing to go for it, and that's important, they really willing to let go into the experience and really go for it. What happens is, it's this intense, powerful rollercoaster that has the potential to transform people in these very incredible ways, like healing from past trauma, or clearing out negative emotion or clarity and insights into the direction of their life. I mean, I use that a tonne for that during my kind of investigation of pursuing a calling, or it's even having a completely transcendental or spiritual type experience. I mean, this is no exaggeration. I mean, that is, the majority of people have a really powerful experience. And so that's, that's kind of what breathwork is all about. And so my typical day tends to be, if I have a client work that I'm doing, that's a part of it. And then, between all of my gaps, that's when I'm doing things like working on the podcast, or working on the book, or, you know, the next writing project or working on, in some cases, like for right now, without going into too much detail. I'm working on my next sort of product service, whatever that you might want to call it. So sort of another project that I'm up to. So that's kind of typical day.
Jay Worthy:That's awesome. So I mean, it's so different. And I'm wondering how you describe what you do to people like, well, if you had a business card, what would the business card say?
Mike Kavanagh:Mike is feeling his way in the dark for some semblance of a path forward? Um, I think, if I had, the way I describe it to people is the main things that I'm doing right now are that I'm a breathwork, and meditation teacher, and then I'm a life and career coach. And I think what the the aim, the end to which all of that is directed is helping people live their best lives, helping people discover for them their own path. I would call it a spiritual path in many cases, but that word turns a lot of people off. I'm not afraid to use it. I think unfortunately, a lot of people don't necessarily. They're not using the word in the same way. So we're not actually describing the same thing. But to me, it is more about your deeper journey in life which is growing as a human doing this inner work becoming more free. And to me, freedom is all about shedding all The stuff, the fear, the anxiety, the stress, all these different things that weigh us down, and that we store in our bodies and that govern the way we go about our days, to the point where many times we are living with this low grade anxiety or depression or tension that we just don't even know is there. And the minute you actually free yourself from it, you're like, Oh, my gosh, life is beautiful. And that's when you start to be able to open up to this joy, this gratitude, the fact that you don't need to go chase crazy things to be able to find some happiness, you can find happiness in very simple things, because you're just feeling good. So that, to me is a big part of all of those things that I'm doing are to help people discover that in their lives.
Jay Worthy:It's so beautiful. And I'm really excited to see where that goes through for you. Because I think that the world needs more of a message like that. So many people are kind of stuck in the day to day, and they don't know how to break free. They, for a lot of them, they desperately want to but they don't really know how to do that. And I've talked on this podcast before about one of the first steps on that journey is to create some space and create a bit of calm, you know, before you sort of rush headlong I mean, my my podcast and my philosophy is always about being adventurous and trying to do, you know, some chart, push yourself, push your limits, and we talked on that on your podcast about that. But for anybody who just trying to make a change in their lives, I think first you have to kind of create some calm and create some space. And you and I have talked about this a lot before because I have a view that for a lot of people that's really hard. Your meditation, for example, is incredibly hard for people to do it was for me personally, it continues to be an ongoing, you know, struggle for me to make sure that I commit enough time to meditation even though it's a daily practice for me. I wonder for people listening in who, who are starting to believe that it's the right path for them, and it will help them create some space. Yeah, what tips would you give people who, who want to kind of try meditation, because you've been doing it for a long time now. So you've, you've got the benefit of quite a lot of experience? Yeah.
Mike Kavanagh:Well, for me, I think meditation and breath work are two very valuable practices, breath work, obviously, there are a number of different types of, of experiences that you can have with that. And I think they both actually are mutually beneficial. And so I discovered that a little bit late, I originally discovered meditation, and went really deep into that. And that was my path 100%. And then breathwork came in later, actually on a meditation retreat. And I discovered, oh, man, this is totally different. And this is extremely beneficial for different reasons. So my advice to somebody who thinks they may want to meditate, or is just getting going is keep it small and simple in the beginning, so try to just get yourself to commit to, I'm just gonna sit down and meditate for five minutes or 10 minutes. And but I'm going to follow through with it. And I'm going to do it every single day. And that, to me is so important. I know a lot of people say this. And so in some ways, it's it's maybe becoming a little bit repetitive for people to hear this. But it's so important because you cannot go dive in headfirst to meditation and be sitting for 45 minutes or an hour without potentially driving yourself crazy. And you're unlikely to come away from that experience and feel like okay, I can do this, instead, it's going to start to show you Wow, I my mind is all over the place. I'm uncomfortable in my own skin. And that's important. That's a realisation that you need to have. And that's part of what meditation shows you. But that's not the end. And so until you go deep enough with meditation, you're not going to feel the benefits of meditation. And so it's important to give it enough time, so that you can actually see, oh, there's they're there. You know, it's it's actually, whether it's calming me down, or it's giving me more focus, or if you're using it more to some of the angles that I've used it for which are more about really freeing yourself and understanding this human experience at a felt experiential level. Like, I'm actually seeing the mechanics of consciousness in my experience, and that then leads to these insights that end up freeing me in some way. That it's, it's very important to say, Alright, I know this is going to take me at least a couple of months. To start to feel like I had, I came away from a session and felt good felt like there was something beneficial that came out of it. And that that's different. I think from breath work because breath work is often it's the type of thing where you, you have a massive experience your first time, it's, it's easier, as long as you show up with an open mind, you push yourself, you really drive yourself through it, I would say probably 90% of people who give it a try, at least once, if not, you know, two to three times 90% of people, by the time they've tried it three times will have had a meaningful experience. So they are at least able to then taste what this practice can bring to them. And know whether or not it's something for them meditation, a lot of people just throw in the towel too early. And they don't recognise, hey, this practice, I mean, it can bring you to the absolute pinnacle of human experience. I mean, it is the number one path that the Buddha and other traditions lead you to for spiritual enlightenment, right? There's something massive that can come from this practice of meditation. But by and large, the average person is not necessarily going to want to follow through with that, because it's sometimes uncomfortable. And it's not necessarily like they're going to experience something really potent, early on to know that they should really keep going.
Jay Worthy:I think that's right. I love that message, Mike. And I remember from some of our early conversations as well, I think I was one of those people that had a bit of a stereotypical preconceived idea of what meditation was, and wasn't. And I think it was quite a binary view, I just assumed it was people sat down in a room for hours on end with their legs crossed, you know, humming or chanting. And, of course, that is one aspect of meditation that people may want to explore, they may get there on their meditation journey, but you can just as easily meditate, going for a walk in the woods, right? And just being alone with your thoughts, and really focusing on being present in the moment and not distracted. So I think that's really, I think that's a really interesting one for you here. So many times people say our meditation is not for me. And whenever I hear that, now, I always I always challenge, challenge it and ask people why they feel that way. Right. And so I think that's, I think that's really interesting. I think you hit on a really interesting point around making micro changes as well, not trying to do too much too soon. I think it's probably a great mantra for any, any behaviour change in your life, if you try and bite off too much at once. It feels really unsustainable.
Mike Kavanagh:Yeah, for sure. And, and I think that the idea of, we all have this tendency, I think, sometimes to just quickly try to judge is something for me or not, and I'm not ever one, as passionate as I am about meditation or breath work for that matter. I'm not one to say, this is for everybody, this is for you. This is something that you really have to do. For sure, a lot of people it's probably not for them for different reasons. But going back to what you said about people who come to that conclusion, a lot of times it is premature, it's, you know, some some people, it's, they've never tried it, and they're like, no, that's not for me, which is like my son who's like, I'm not gonna eat that vegetable. And I'm like, you never tried it, you don't know, if you like it, you know, journey, like at least eat it and, you know, come to this with a little open mind for me, and then, you know, but it's, it's just, it's that's the mentality, I think people are like, okay, it's, it's woowoo, or it's this, or it's that, and they kind of write it off. But even the people that give it a shot, and then early, I sometimes talk about this to people as a little bit likening it to a relationship, for example. You know, I mean, if you, if you meet somebody and you have 10 minutes a conversation with them, do you know that person, you know, do you really truly know them inside? Now? Obviously, if we went on a date with somebody, and we're like, You're amazing, let's get married, you know, and six weeks later, oh, no, what did I just do? It's you don't know people until you've even six months isn't enough to know the depth and complexity and richness of a person. And that's meditation is showing you about yourself. It's, it's a new relationship with yourself. And so to think that you're gonna figure out what this practice is all about and see everything in a really short period of time is, I think, very naive. And it's unfortunate because many people who actually meditation would be their thing. If they went far enough. They're missing out on one of the most transformational practices that there is for a human to embark upon.
Jay Worthy:Yeah, that's so true. And I think for a lot of people, you know, when you talk about people saying, Oh, it's not for me, why do you think that is? What do you think is created that perception of metal dictation that it's that it's not that people think it's not for them.
Mike Kavanagh:I think there's so many different reasons. I sometimes sometimes it has to do with this spiritual or religious aversion that that many of us have, because of how we were brought up or how we were raised. I think there's also some kind of, sometimes a people who are Uber rational, and scientifically minded, which I was, I spent much of my academic career going down the science path. So I love science. And I don't see them at odds with each other. But for a while, I think that was the way people thought about it that's changing now that there's an intersection between certainly mindfulness and research coming together to say, Hey, this is also just a tool for, you know, business people to be better focusing or athletes to be better at performance, and you know, focus and relaxation. And this is great for people for pain relief in certain symptom management or so I think some of that is changing, and there's just a recognition, but I do think there's a certain portion of people that it's like, oh, it feels like it's woowoo. Or it's strange, or it's, it's something in that realm, and I just don't like things in that realm. So that's, that's part of it. I also think whether or not you know, we have this tendency are, we come up with a decision, and then our brain comes in later, and ascribes a rational explanation for it, which a lot of times actually isn't the real reason why we made a decision, you know, we made a decision because of gut level feelings and unconscious stuff. And then the brain comes in and says, This is the reason why I feel that way. And it's actually complete Bs, and all of our brains do that my brain does, I don't that my brain is actually totally full of BS, and I try not to listen to it too much. But the thing that I do think happens with people there is also really what's underpinning This is a fear to be alone with themselves, people have almost become unable to do this, partly because of technology and fast paced society and whatever. But we are very, very, very reticent to sit alone, with our thoughts with our experience with no distractions, because you're then forced to confront some uncomfortable stuff. And we're always trying to avoid that. So I actually think a big part of reason why people don't do it, or they don't continue with it is because that's hard. And it takes practice to work through that. And then they come in later. And they say, Oh, it's just it's not for me, because of XYZ filling your reason. Which isn't really the real reason whether they realise that or not.
Jay Worthy:Yeah, that's, that's fun. And I think also, you know, I've talked before, when I came on your podcast, the reason that I like, kind of ultra challenges and, you know, heavy, extreme challenges is because after a certain point in time, you're all alone with your thoughts. And there's nowhere to hide, right? Your you just got you and your thoughts and it and it can be really uncomfortable. And in fact, more often than not, it is uncomfortable that self doubt creeps in. You know, that negative thinking you start criticising, criticising yourself, but after enough time, you start to kind of cut through that and you get a little bit of control. I mean, when I first started meditating, I think I've told you the story, but I would, I was like a closeted meditator. I wouldn't do it in front of my family. I, because I was embarrassed, I was embarrassed that I was meditate, which is insane and ridiculous. But but that was what I did. I would do it when they weren't around, or when I was in a hotel room if I was travelling, or, you know, in the basement. Yeah, I didn't want people to see me meditating, because I didn't. I just didn't connect with it first, but I gave myself enough time and then realise that you shouldn't really worry about what people people think. And I started to see the value of it. And it became it became really, really a powerful tool for me and like, like I said earlier, it's it's up and down. Some sometimes I'm more in the zone than others but but it is a really powerful way to, to kind of make yourself listen to your thoughts and then start to try and compartmentalise them, let your mind wander sometimes as well is is is really helpful. Absolutely. So Mike, this is this has been great. I could I could genuinely talk to you forever. I always love our conversations and you always made me think about, you know, meditation, how I could be doing more and I just think your passion for what you're doing is really impressive. And I love the fact that you're following your calling and you've written your book and you've got all these exciting projects on the go. So I'm so pleased for you. I'd love to know what else you've got planned if you can share if you got any fun projects in the making.
Mike Kavanagh:Well, I do have one fun project that I'm you might I call it a media experience that I'm not going to give away too much. But I think it's going to be hopefully very helpful and catalysing some very transformative stuff for people. And I don't think there's anything quite like it out there. So I've been spending some time working on that. But I think, in large part, it's going to be continuing to work with people in one on one in group settings, it's going to be continuing to work on these creative projects on the side. And all the while, just continuing to enjoy life, you know, just just help others to do the same. I think sometimes, there's a quote, I really like, from ROM das, he, he says, We're all just walking each other home. And I love that. And so I feel like everything that I do going forward, I have seen so clearly that what I like want my life to be about is doing my part, you know, helping helping walk some people home. That's awesome. Like, I
Jay Worthy:love that. So I'm gonna bring it bring us to a close now, you know, the 28 summers philosophy is is all about encouraging people of any age, old and young to, to start living a more adventurous and purposeful life in whatever capacity that may be. Right, but just breaking free and trying to remove some of the limiting beliefs that they have around them. So knowing that and and with your, you know, your focus of being being more positive and purposeful, what would be your you don't have to give anything away from your book, by the way. But what would be your, I don't know, your top three tips for somebody who's listened to this podcast, and maybe some of the earlier ones and is thinking right now is the time that I need to start living my life differently, what would be your, your top three game changes? Tip number one
Mike Kavanagh:is find people who have done what you want to do in some way, even if it's not exactly what you want to do. But it's similar. They're living the way that you want to live their life looks like the life that you would want to have in some way. So that's like, in my own case, when I sought out those people I profiled in the book, I wanted to spend time with people like that. Because usually, I think an issue that we bumped into is we're surrounded by people in life who are where we are in some way, either literally or metaphorically. And we're doing that instead of spending time surrounded by people who are what we aspire to be, and learning from them. And letting the presence of those people help lift us up. So that's, for me, that's tip number one. Tip number two. And this would be something I would have told myself, many years ago. Stop waiting, stop waiting. And we're always waiting. You said this yourself, you say it in the podcast. I feel this way. So strongly, I guarantee to any listener right now, for example, who is feeling like they know they need to move in a different direction, but they're not doing it right now in some way. I guarantee there's something that you can do today, regardless of where you are on the path. There's something you can do today. Maybe you don't know what that is. Okay, guess what, you could be doing something today to help yourself figure that out further that self discovery process. So that, to me is so essential. Just stop waiting to live your life to the fullest. There's no better time than now You ain't getting any younger. Let's do this. Tip number three. Maybe being a little cheeky here. But stop listening and other people's tips. I find I have this this issue a little bit. But you have you have this in immense wisdom within. And you need to learn to trust that wisdom within and so you might not know, you might not realise what it has to say yet. But you I would say I would argue that you do deep down you know.
Jay Worthy:That's great. That's a that's a great tip. And I think you're right, you know, I think that people just need to, to follow their gut a little bit more. Take that gut instinct and really just go for it. This has been such a fun conversation for me. I think your message is spot on. And I know for a fact there'll be people listening who are in the corporate kind of rat race and just feeling like it's not what they what they really wanted. And you know, I think there's such a strong message that you're giving around, you'd be more present, be more purposeful, fill your you know, fill your days with with things that make you happy and and don't Don't wait. Don't wait for something to happen, you know, make it happen yourself. So some some great messages there. Where can anybody listening find find you online? I know you said you're not a massive social media fan, but I know you're on social media. So where can people find you? And where can people follow you?
Mike Kavanagh:I think the easiest place to send people is back to the breath.org. And from there, you can find everything. You can find social media, you can find what I'm up to, you can find the book. And so I would send everybody to back to the breath.org. Great stuff.
Jay Worthy:Mike, it's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today. Thank you so much for your time. And I'm looking forward to speaking to you again soon.
Mike Kavanagh:Likewise, this is awesome. Thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Jay Worthy:Well, I hope you all enjoyed that as much as I did. And I told you it would make you look inwardly. Mike is such an authentic guy. And his approach to life is definitely worth listening to. You know, his message of being present of harnessing the power of meditation, and finding your calling is the tonic that can heal you. I feel like 2020 has been such a difficult year for all of us. And I just love the way that Mike focuses on looking inwardly and not being afraid to be alone with your thoughts and feelings. Every year, people all around the world commit to New Year's resolutions and then fall off that waggon by the time February rolls in. So as we move into 2021, full of hope and positivity for a better year. Why not follow Mike's lead and focus inwardly on yourself and give yourself time to learn more about who you are, what makes you tick and crucially, what fills your heart with joy. If you want to hear more from Mike, as you heard, you can find him at back to the breast org where you can find the links to all of his content and his social accounts. You will not be disappointed please do look him up. As always, if you can also find the time to please follow me on Instagram at one day adventurer and let me know who you think I should have on the podcast as a guest in the future. Please also if you can click Subscribe on the podcast leave me a review. It really helps in securing awesome guests for these interviews and it doubles up as a great way for you to hear the next episodes just as they drop. In the meantime, stay happy, stay healthy, and remember to live life adventurous